True origins of these...?

[Miles]

Does any one know the *true* origins of the following common expressions...(they are common in the USA, not sure about other places...)...?

"The cat's out of the bag"...(the mental image speaks for itself, but it must have come from SOMEwhere..book, movie...?)

"What's the matter...? Cat got your tongue...?"...

"more than one way to skin a cat..."....(I think I know this one, it's not quite as gruesome as it sounds, but I can't be sure...)....

Anyone know the authentic origins...?

Miles

[Ann]

I haven't got a clue, but I'd be interested to hear the explanations if anyone else knows.

Ann

[Lesley]

miles, i only know the first one (cat out of the bag) has to do with people (15th 16th century?)  bringing piglets (or something else) to the market to sell; and filling the bag with a cat instead.
something like that. '
i bet mark will know the origin of these ones.

lesley

[Silk]

Miles

Letting the cat out of the bag has seemingly two different origins, both of which claim to be the one that spawned the saying.

Lesley was right with one, as in seedy farm sellers were supposedly known to sometimes place a young cat in a sack and try to sell it off as a piglet. It seems hard to believe, but you also have to remember that at those times fresh meat was a commodity many could not afford, and taxes on sales hurt the farmers too, so the idea of black market sales of a piglet in a sack is not as unlikley as one would think.
Once money changed hands, if you took the sack home only to find a cat in there instead, then obviously the cat was let out of the bag.
(But to be honest I am still not too convinced that that many would fall for such a trick)

The second version comes from naval terms, and to me is far more likley.
As many will know, there are many mariners terms which have become common sayings today.
(touching wood,  belay that , kissing the gunners daughter, starting something, etc.,)

According to naval tradition both of your sayings come from the usage of the dreaded 'cat o nine tails'

The 'cat' was normaly kept in a red baise bag (red for rather obvious reasons with the naval cat being far worse than the army version)
Now whereas small crimes from being drunk on duty (hardly suprising seeing as the ration was a pint of 100 proof rum a day, double on a good day), being lazy, and even being cheeky to an officer were often dealt with by an instant blow from the starter, often to the call of 'Start that man!' (a starter being a knotted tarred rope end), but all too many crimes were reported in the punishment book for x number of strokes of the cat on a sunday. (just before your sunday dinner, how delightfull) Most seamen knew roughly what crime resulted in what number of strokes and to be caught for one and reported would be commented as 'Letting the cat out of the bag'

As for the ways of skinning a cat. this seems to again have both sources, although both are pretty much dealing again with the cat o nine tails.
Some say it was down to the punishment officers art at using the cat, ie knowing just how to flay someone without actualy killing them (some seamen suffered 100's of lashes without dying)  and dependant on whether you were favoured by him, might depend on whether he realy 'laid them on' or put on a show that sounded and looked far worse than it was. (but I still don't fancy it)
The other version is:
On some ships, one of the parts of the punishment for a realy serious crime (ie over 50 lashes) the prisoner would be 'taken into irons' and made to also make the cat that was to be used in his punishment. A cat was normaly made from small strips or skins of tarred rope knotted together and each tail knotted down its length at various intervals. Now naturaly many sailers believd that ropes from diferent [arts of the ship would have different effects, and thin rope was not a very common commodity (sails, anchors and netting needing pretty thick stuff) but a thick rope is made of smaller ropes twined together, and so stripping them back was called skinning, therefore stripping a rope to make a cat would be considered skinning the cat (just it means to skin as in to add a skin not take one off)
So although it most certainly does not refer to removing our beloved furry friends coats, it was still for a pretty gruesom end.


Lastly the term 'half and half' also came from this. After you were flogged, on some ships you were still given your pint of rum for 'half and half' half went down your throat, the other half: down your back.... ouch!

Hope this helps
Mark

PS: another hobby of mine is the navy of the wooden ship era... but than you might guess that!

[Lesley]

*sigh*
mark, i just knew you had a vast wealth of information in you!
thank you for the excellent explantations.

lesley

[Silk]

Lesley

Do you mean to say that I am full of 'it' ? ;D ;D

You wouldn't be the first to say that  

Mark

PS: on a last note:   I stumbled upon another account of the kitten in the bag definition today... and yes it was accidental, strange how that happens.
According to this one, it referred more to somthing 'sold sight unseen' and also was commonly done as a con on kids, also lending to the phrases 'A pig in a poke' and 'Being sold a pup'. Most of which appear to originate round Norfolk and Essex, and again seem to refer to being sold a puppy in a bag whilst being told it was a piglet. (sorry but I have seen and handled piglets... which are quite cute, and they do not sound like puppies or cats)

I threw this at another friend of mine who is also a bit of a wooden ships nut. He just said the ships one stands for 'cat in a bag' 'Skinning a cat' and  the one I forgot  'No room to swing a cat' the other explanation being adapted from being sold a pup, and that people must've been pretty thick in Norfolk to keep falling for it, enough to coin a phrase.

Still can't find referance to cat got your tongue though, I know it is common, but have no clue as to origin.
Come on you surfers!
We must be able to help Miles on this one too.

[Lesley]

Silk said:

Lesley

Do you mean to say that I am full of 'it' ? ;D ;D

You wouldn't be the first to say that  

mark,
ah, yes, full of it! ha, only it is a quality i recognize. i think i saw it somewhere. perhaps in the mirror earlier today!

lesley

[Maria]

'Letting the cat out of the bag' is an expression that I too, have always understood as coming from the seafaring tradition of the dreaded 'cat o' nine tails', but the other explanations are also interesting.

'Rubbing someone up the wrong way' (ie to annoy them) comes from the fact that if one strokes a cat from tail to head, instead of the other way around, it rubs the fur up the wrong way and annoys the cat.

The roots of these kinds of expressions that we commonly use are very interesting. They often tend to vary in different cultures and regions as well.

Does anyone know any more, cat related or otherwise?

[Miles]

Mark,
Very interesting....thanks for helping to clear these up...! I had posted this on another cat board too, and "cat out of the bag" referring to the swindle of a cat being sold as a piglet was confirmed by many there.

"More than one way to skin a cat" - how I understood the orgin of this was confirmed there as well - it actually refers to a catfish, so named because of the "whiskers" growing from around their mouths...catfish are found in nearly all the rivers, lakes and ponds here in the USA (I'm not sure if they're native to England...?). They're a very tasty fish, almost a "sweet" taste....but instead of scales, they have a very tough skin that must be removed before you cook them, and it can be a rather difficult procedure (I know this from personal experience...!). In my youth I went fishing many times with my Dad and one of his friends and was shown several of the "correct" ways to do it. My Dad's friend watched me completely mangle and destroy a few on my own, and said to me "well, they say there's more than one way to skin a cat, but THAT isn't one of them...!" The naval origin you posted is interesting as well, had never heard that one....!

Any luck on "cat got your tongue"...?

Miles

[Vicki]

Cat got your tongue - Why aren't you talking?

The phrase probably comes from a custom in the Mideast hundreds of years ago, when it was common to punish a thief by cutting off their right hand, and a liar by ripping out their tongue. These severed body parts were given to the king's pet cats as their daily food.



Also an expression I like is "as impossible as herding cats." I don't know where it comes from but I think it speaks for itself. A couple of years ago a dot com company built a very clever commercial around this phrase. They actually had real cowboys herding cats. It was hysterical